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The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts

Episode 121: BJ Novak

Show notes and links at tim.blog/podcast

Tim Ferriss: BJ, welcome to the show.

BJ Novak: Thanks for having me here. It's very cool.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I appreciate it and we are sitting in Venice at my friend's

house – Devon and his friend Travis Brewer, who's on "American

Ninja Warrior" – so we have this incredible workout facility to the

right – to my right, I guess – of the garage. But you do not… You

work in Venice but you live an hour away?

BJ Novak: I live over an hour away so I have been getting into podcasts… I

actually enjoy – I was telling you on the way in – I enjoy getting to

see this other part of town because L.A. is really like several

different cities and I have never really known the West Side so it's

worth it to me, at least for now to spend that hour. And listening to

podcasts on the drive, it's really like an extra hour of reading a day.

Tim Ferriss: Do you have any particular go-to podcasts at the moment?

BJ Novak: I just started getting into yours. What else do I like? I love this

podcast called, "The Great Debate." It's a comedy.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: I'm not familiar with that.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: – a comedy debate podcast. It's people really at the top of their

intelligence – two Harvard friends of mine who are very well-

educated erudite comedy writers – just going at the most trivial and

bizarre topics. One topic was, "It would be cool if the Pope had an

affair with Maura Tierney." And one of them took the side, "The

Catholic Church needs this sort of jolt and rebranding."

And the other person saying, "What's the point of an institution

like this…?" So I'd say –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: So it's like debate club?

BJ Novak: Yeah. And then there's one intelligent squared which is the serious

debate.

Tim Ferriss: The serious version of that?

BJ Novak: Yeah, the serious version of the comedy version of the serious

thing. And that's been really interesting, too.

Tim Ferriss: For those of you wondering what the whining is, it's not BJ – that's

Molly, my dog. You mentioned two Harvard friends – or fellow

Harvard graduates – I have a question about Harvard.

BJ Novak: And you're a Princeton guy?

Tim Ferriss: I went to the lesser known with the P. But it seems like there is a

rich history of people coming to Hollywood from Harvard.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: That you don't associate with, say, Yale – or maybe so but I haven't

come across it as much – or other Ivies. Why is that? Because it

seems to go back quite a ways.

My family, at one point, knew Henry Beard –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Oh, yeah.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: – who then helped create "National Lampoon's."

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: And it just seems to go way, way back and I'd love to hear why

that is. I really don't know.

BJ Novak: The main correlation that I am familiar with is the Harvard

Lampoon, which is a really one-of-a-kind comedy magazine that

has its own spectacular castle building in the middle of prime real

estate in Harvard Square. William Randolph Hearst funded this

incredibly bizarre and exciting old building and that has fostered a

lot of intelligent people trying to get into this

building/magazine/party house. And those people train each other

really, I wouldn’t quite say viciously, but really rigorously about

comedy. "This joke doesn't progress. This joke is predictable." And

it's very rare that you'll get 19 year olds being hard on funny 18

year olds year after year.

And so I think that is a training system that is unlike just about

anything else you'd be exposed to at that age. So that has led to a

lot of people falling in love with and becoming very good at

comedy writing which is a real a building block of entertainment

that can be put to use – so a lot of people have traditionally

graduated "The Harvard Lampoon" and gone on to write for "The

Simpsons" or "Saturday Night Live," or many, many other shows.

And I think once you see graduates do that, you think, "Oh, maybe

I could do that." But a big advantage, I think, of going to a fancy

school or my dad – who did not go to a fancy school but is a writer

– a lot of people ask me, "Oh, did you have those advantages?"

Yes, of course, to an extent, but I find the biggest advantage is just

not thinking that it's a crazy idea to try to be a comedy writer or to

try to be a writer.

Many people waste years working as a lawyer, working whatever

they do that they think of as a more reasonable choice before they

finally get the courage to write. So I think that the huge advantage

is, if you have the talent – no matter where you are – if you believe

that it's a reasonable choice of action, you're extremely fortunate.

And that, I think, is a main advantage of going to Harvard – it

doesn't seem crazy.

Tim Ferriss: Right. You have these historical case studies of people who have

done exactly what you might fantasize about doing. And the rigor

and the training is very interesting to me because I was the

graphics editor at "The Princeton Tiger," so the satire magazine –

cartoons, illustrations – that was my department and I wanted that

job partially because Jim Lee, who is an iconic hero in the comic

book world for me, had that previous post at Princeton.

And I found a bunch of his drawings, actually, that he did when he

was shitfaced drunk after going to a party on Nassau Street, but

that's a separate story. The approach really was "Do something

funny" and there wasn't a lot of structure. There was feedback of

something sucked, obviously, or just didn't get any type of laughs,

whatsoever, but where did that structure develop? Did people come

back from, say, the industry and help instill that in some way or

did it just develop organically among the students?

BJ Novak: The career path of it?

Tim Ferriss: No, I mean the being hard on underclassmen and looking at

whether something progresses or not, etc.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Well, I imagine that was simply imitative of other rigorous

extracurricular at a school like that where the ski club, or rowing,

or "The Harvard Crimson" newspaper, or whatever, probably – it's

more inherited from that because a lot of people want to do these

activities and you limit it to the people that you feel – and it's an

incredibly subjective process – but are the most talented at comedy

writing.

And so you put them through, "Well, can you do this? Can you do

that?" And you have to write a number of pieces in order to get on

the staff. So I think that everything at a place like that is very

competitive and so this is just that same rigor applied to this very

incredibly subjective, and often thought to be trivial field of

comedy writing.

Tim Ferriss: Did you –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: And this did not lead to the best comedy writers, by any means.

That's just one advantage. And the other advantage is that they

believe they can do it. There are also huge disadvantages to

coming from "The Harvard Lampoon" which is a lack of life

experience, or being in touch with what real people actually find

funny, or a sense of cockiness that is very antithetical to comedy.

So there are definitely advantages and disadvantages to coming

from a place like that.

Tim Ferriss: At what point in your undergrad did you get involved with "The

Lampoon?"

BJ Novak: Well, I tried to get on from the very beginning. You "comp" is the

term for auditioning for it with your writing so I tried three

semesters. So I didn't get on until the middle of my sophomore

year but I wanted to be on from Day 1.

Tim Ferriss: What do you think changed between your first attempts and getting

accepted? How did you improve or was it just…?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: I have no idea. I probably just improved because I was older and

had been doing it longer but it's also incredibly subjective. If I had

not gotten on, I had vowed to never try again and then decide those

people didn't know what the fuck they were talking about. And

then I did get on and, actually, I did keep a healthy sense of, "This

is not the be-all, end-all." But it's so subjective.

Tim Ferriss: When you then did writing after college…

Well, actually, let's not hit fast forward although I'm happy to jump

around. The next step after graduating – what happened in the year

after graduation?

BJ Novak: Well, I have a bizarre course of events. What it has in common

with everyone else is that everyone who gets a job in show

business, they have a story that's not replicable. That's the one

constant, ironically. So what happened was one of my main

extracurriculars at Harvard was that I put on a show called "The BJ

Show" with another kid named BJ who was a campus celebrity. He

was a reality show star before reality because he had stowed away

on a plane to visit his family for Thanksgiving – this was before

9/11 so it wasn't quite as bad, but, still, it made the papers.

"Harvard Student Stows Away on Plane." He was "the guy from

the plane" and so I saw an opportunity, here, to hitch my fame to

his and we put on this –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: To get attached to the plane guy?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, exactly. "You know, I have the same name as the guy who

was on the plane. Now maybe we should do something together.

So we put on this show and I got my comedy friends and we wrote

this… It was a variety show in parody of a variety show called

"The BJ Show." My senior year, I decided, "Let's invite Bob Saget

to perform in this show," because I had heard that he was a really

filthy standup comic – which he is – so I knew that would surprise

people.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Now what was the timing on this – this was probably…?

BJ Novak: This was 2001.

Tim Ferriss: 2001?

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Okay, so this was before America's Funniest Home Videos?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: No, this is after.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Oh, I'm sorry, after.

BJ Novak: Yeah. So he's well-known as a family friendly guy but I have heard

rumors that he's really filthy.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Filthy standup.

BJ Novak: So I think, "Maybe we can book him. Maybe we can honor him at

'The Harvard Lampoon' and, because he'll want the award, he'll

come and do the show," – which worked perfectly.

I approached his management – I cold-called his management –

and said, "I'm calling from Harvard. We want to give Bob Saget an

award and feature him in the show." And this show, the proceeds

went to charity. It wasn't a scam for me. I just thought it would be

a great show. By the way, that's a great thing – if you don't care

about the money, always give the money to charity because then

everyone will do it. And, often, you just don't care about the

money; you just want to put on something cool. So that's a thing I

learned in college that I'll probably use again any time I have some

cool scheme. They're like, "Sure. Keep the money. Who cares?" So

I cold-called his management. I asked my dad, "How do you think

I get in touch with Bob Saget?" He said, "Call CAA." We're from

Boston. I don't know how he knows. He says, "Look up 411. Call

CAA's number and ask CAA. They'll probably know." I was like,

"That's so smart." So I called –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: One of the big agencies in town for…

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah. So I called CAA and I said, "Do you guys represent Bob

Saget? The receptionist says, "No." I said, "Do you know who

does?" They said, “I think Brillstein and Grey." So I look up

Brillstein and Grey, I call Brillstein and Grey.

They do represent Bob Saget. They put me through to a guy. I

explain my case. He says, "Send the stuff you're writing for Bob.

I'll take a look." This guy later becomes my manager. So the

manager, Michael Price, likes the material, recommends that Bob

does it. Bob comes out and does the show which is a very highly

scripted show. There's a parody of "Full House" called "The Lost

Episode of Full House" in which Bob learns about sex from Uncle

Jesse – very dirty, very funny. Anyway, so, after the show, Bob –

and he had brought his show's creator – he was doing a new show

that never really went anywhere but it lasted one season. It was

called, "Raising Dad." Oddly, it starred Cat Dennings and Brie

Larson who are now very successful people, as well. But they

hired me – they were like, "Oh, cool, a young edgy writer from

'Harvard Lampoon,' perfect." They gave me a job on that staff

while I was about to graduate. So I am graduating –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: That's a perfect set up.

BJ Novak: Perfect, in a way.

Tim Ferriss: In a way.

BJ Novak: Too good to be true on a career level but, again, I really had these

fantasies of being a great artist, a great filmmaker, and a family

WB show. I didn't want to move to L.A. I knew that I shouldn't say

no to this – and I didn't say no to it. But I actually wanted to be a

starving artist. Look, I'm from a suburb. Starving artist means I

borrow a little money and live cheap – I have no real illusions. But

I had mixed feelings so it was a dream come true in the career

moving forward but it was, I don't know…

Tim Ferriss: What type of starving artist did you think you wanted to be when

you were a sophomore, junior?

BJ Novak: I had read this book, "Easy Rider's Raging Bulls" about

independent film.

Tim Ferriss: Would you recommend it?

BJ Novak: Highly recommend it.

Tim Ferriss: "Easy Rider's Raging Bulls?"

BJ Novak: "Easy Rider's Raging Bulls," about filmmaking in the glory days of

the '70s.

And I wanted to be like that. And then there's a sequel about the

Miramax – the '90s, Tarantino, Kevin Smith – that was also good.

But I wanted to write a screenplay that would blow Hollywood

apart – it was so edgy and innovative, etc. – and then demand to

direct it and I think anyone who saw "Pulp Fiction" as a teenager,

that was their fantasy. So that was very much my fantasy and, in

my privileged wannabe artist mind, this was a sellout move. But I

knew it would be even more privileged and eye-rolly to turn it

down. So it's an interesting paradox – I've noticed this.

When I was young, I thought, "Oh, I'll never be a sellout. If anyone

ever offers me something sellout-y, I'll always say no." Then you

realize there's a huge integrity pull toward doing the sellout thing

because you think, "Who am I to turn down all this money for

something that someone else would struggle their whole lives, etc.,

etc.?"

And you actually feel very guilted into – towards, at least – doing

what you would have considered a sellout thing. So it's an

interesting paradox that I have observed with a lot of successful

people. They get offered a really lame movie for a ton of money

and their thought isn't, "Fuck that. I'm an artist." Their thought is,

"God, who am I? I'd put my kids through college just to do a

Christmas movie? Who am I to say no?" It's very surprising. It

makes sense but I'm still –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: It does make sense. It's an incentive of guilt as opposed to an

incentive of focus, in a way. It's like "The Christmas Story," where

it's like, "There are starving kids in China." And you're like, "Oh,

okay, I'll eat this food that you put in front of me."

BJ Novak: Right.

Tim Ferriss: How did you, then, make decisions or what happened after you

were offered that gig on the…?

BJ Novak: I took it.

Tim Ferriss: You took it?

BJ Novak: Yeah. I took it. I moved to L.A., started writing for it, and I looked

around the room… It's interesting. I kept telling myself, "I'm

making so much money," – because, for a kid at that age, it's so

much money – but every job I've had since then, I've made more

money – on "The Office," for example – and I never thought, "I'm

making so much money." So any time I'm telling myself, "I'm

making so much money," that's a warning sign that you're doing

the wrong thing. So I would tell myself that because I gradually

realized, "This isn't the life I want." I'd look around this writer's

room and think, "These are not the jobs I want."

And I'm glad I did. I really had these dreams of doing something

important, and visible, and exciting. And the only people in the

room who I did aspire to be something like were Bob Saget – who

would come by now and then in his fancy car and cool sunglasses

and tell ten jokes and leave and get to be the star of the show – and

Jonathan Katz – who created the show and had previously created

"Dr. Katz" on Comedy Central.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, sure.

BJ Novak: A really cool show.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah, I know "Dr. Katz."

BJ Novak: And he also came by now and then, gave some words of wisdom

and jokes, and then left, and was also celebrated for his own voice.

And I thought, "Well, those are the guys I want to be." And they

were both standups. So I had never thought of doing standup

before then, but I realized, "Well, how insurmountable is this?

Being a standup is writing a joke and then saying the joke and that

is what I'm doing in this writers' room. I write a joke and I say it

aloud to see if it goes in the script. I guess I could try that and try

to be like them." And so, as the show was winding down, I signed

up for open mics around L.A. and I would start saying one-liners

into a microphone and I was kind of doing standup comedy.

Tim Ferriss: Do you remember any of your early bits when you did it?

BJ Novak: Yeah. Well, the first time was a real disaster and one of my most

important pieces of advice to anyone doing standup is if you're

really going to try standup, book your whole week of shows – your

whole first week – in advance.

Tim Ferriss: So you can't quit?

BJ Novak: So you can't quit because I got up all this courage to do my first

show – it was at a youth hostel, the Hollywood Youth Hostel. It

was October 10th, 2001 – so less than a month after 9/11 and all

my jokes were about 9/11. And I was not a good comic and the

crowd didn't speak much English. And I followed a guy who

killed. He did an impression of Robert DeNiro taking a dump and,

I have to say, it was great. It was a great impression and you didn't

need to know English. And it was completely the opposite of what

I was doing. So I did this bit – it was horrible – and the host said

after me – to try to keep the show going – all he could muster for

me was, "It takes a lot of courage to get up on this stage." And,

after that, I did not get on stage for three months. I had to work up

the courage all over again because it had been such a disaster.

And, that time, I was like, "You know what? Tuesday, I'm going to

this coffee shop, and Wednesday, I'm going to this bar…" – all

these open mics. And the first night back, I did pretty well. And the

second night, I didn't do well. But you can't make each night a

referendum on whether or not you should be doing it. You just

have to do a bunch.

Tim Ferriss: And how did your approach change between that first bomb and

the second collection of attempts?

BJ Novak: It was really… It was exactly that – it was the idea that, "I'm going

to really do this, night after night, and I will evolve the act and…"

And I was really bad for a while but, let's say you do 20 jokes and

3 of them get pity laughs – well, those are the 3 you keep. And

then, after a while, 1 of them always does well – well, that's your

opener. And now two of them do well – well, you have a closer.

And you just sense, "Okay, when I do this kind of joke, it does

well." And it evolves that way.

Tim Ferriss: And what did your parents do?

You mentioned your dad wrote. He wrote some memoirs or ghost-

wrote some memoirs for some big people.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, that's what he does.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: What are some samples…?

BJ Novak: The biggest one he did was Lee Iococa – the biggest and first one

he did. He also did the memoirs of Nancy Reagan, of Tip O'Neil,

Magic Johnson – which was very exciting for me. He worked with

Tim Russert on two books and George Stephanopoulos – so a lot

of political people on both sides of the spectrum – and a lot of just

eclectic business leaders. Various people.

Tim Ferriss: What did your mom do?

BJ Novak: My mom is a teacher now. She's done a bunch of things, though.

She's had also an eclectic career.

Tim Ferriss: What did they think of your move to start – not startups, that

comes a little later – standup? Similar sounding word. How did

they feel about that? What were the conversations like?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, I think they thought I wasn't very good. My dad also is the

co-editor of a couple humor books that are very good – "The Big

Book of Jewish Humor" and "The Big Book of American Humor."

And my family, comedy's a big deal to us. They watch "Seinfeld"

every night – "Seinfeld" and "Key and Peele" are the only things

my parents watch which I think is very good taste. So I think they

definitely supported me writing. I'd studied Literature at Harvard.

My dad's a writer. There was nothing… Again, huge advantage for

me that my parents thought writing was a good, solid job. And then

standup was where they were like, "Eh. Okay. Get it out of your

system. This is not you but whatever." They never said this to me

but, in retrospect, it's like… It's the same thing onstage when the

audience is laughing and then you say something off the cuff and

you get a huge laugh and you realize, "Oh, they weren't even

laughing before." My parents were supportive, supportive,

supportive, and then they really supported something different and

you're like, "Okay, so you were not… Okay, you were just being

polite. Fair enough."

Tim Ferriss: And that was the sort of…

BJ Novak: But they were slow. They're supportive people. They came around

and they supported "The Office" when I was with that.

Tim Ferriss: So what happened between that startup – I really want to say

startup –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: It's just two letters.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: This is why I'm taking a break from startups is because I’m just

completely brainwashed. From that first standup…

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: You could title this interview, "From Standup to Startup."

Tim Ferriss: I could.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: That could be your memoir.

BJ Novak: That could be. I'll call my dad right now.

Tim Ferriss: From that point to "The Office," – what happened between those?

BJ Novak: From that point to "The Office?" Well, "Raising Dad" got

cancelled. I continued doing standup. I ran out of all the money

that I had saved on my "big money year" in about a year and a half,

two years of doing open mics and gradually getting better to the

point of where, at the end of after a year of a half – which is a long

time when you are a kid from the suburbs…

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: It is a long time.

BJ Novak: It's a long time but, compared to most standups, I got very lucky,

of course.

But it did feel like a very long time because I had been working.

After about a year and a half, I got decent at standup and I was

starting to get booked at Respected Alternative Realm, at The

Improv. And there are a lot of people in Hollywood that are always

looking for anyone half promising to sign or to put on showcases

and I was becoming that comic that people would say, "Oh, there's

a new guy. He's pretty good." That kind of guy. And, at the end of

that two-year stretch, a lot of things happened at once. I got cast on

the show "Punk'd."

Tim Ferriss: Sure.

BJ Novak: I replaced Dax Shepard as the new guy – which I thought. Oh,

that's what I'll be famous for the rest of my life – I'm the guy from

"Punk'd." So I did pranks on Hillary Duff, and Usher, and people

like that – incredibly fun. And I got booked on "Conan," I got

booked on Comedy Central –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Was the Usher…? I have a vague memory of this. Was this when

his brother was set up to steal jewelry?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yup. And then I tell him –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Usher handled it so well.

BJ Novak: He was great. And then I tell Usher, "You know, we can let this go

if you record a radio ad for our store and do this rap that I wrote."

They wrote a really funny rap and I have to rap this to Usher so I

had to keep a straight face. And one of the brilliant touches the

writers put in is that, in the rap, Usher refers to himself as "Ice"

and then I apologize that we originally wrote this for Vanilla Ice,

who passed. So I got to do really funny, clever things. And, around

this time, I was on a showcase.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Standup?

BJ Novak: A standup showcase for a network and now I'd booked "Punk'd"

and stuff like that. And that's when Greg Daniels, who was

creating the American "Office" saw me and thought… He was

already looking for people who could write, and act, and my jokes

were very clearly clever writing. They weren't a raw personality or

anything.

So he thought, "Oh, maybe you can do…" – and I had had a

writing job – "maybe you can be a writer/actor." Which, at the

time, it was a very experimental idea on the…

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I was going to ask you why he was looking for that.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Because he had worked at Saturday Night Live and he had had a

good experience where, there, it was a small gang of people who

were writing their own things. And, also, the British "Office" had

been a small… Ricky Gervais had written so much of it. And he

was totally right – "Let's not have a corporate feeling show with

the writing staff cast – let's cast funny people who can do it as a

little unit."

Tim Ferriss: So what was the very beginning of "The Office" like for you?

BJ Novak: The beginning of "The Office" was very exciting – creatively,

especially – because it was not thought to be a show that… Now I

got to feel like that starving artist – the actual integrity. This was

not considered a show with any chance of success.

It was a very drab – there's no laugh track, there's no color, it's

bleak, it's not a pretty cast, the jokes are very slow and dry, and it's

a remake of a British show that NBC had a track record of

disastrous remakes. So it was a six-episode mid-season order. It

was a really… Actually, no, it was just a pilot order and then we

squeaked into six episodes. But the people working on it were

brilliant. Steve Carrell's improvisations and Greg Daniels' joke

pitches and story outlines. And pretty soon, this very lean writing

staff of Mindy Kaling and Paul Lieberstein – who played Toby on

the show – a bunch of other really… Larry Wilmore who now

hosts "The Nightly Show" on Comedy Central – a really lean

group. And so, creatively, it was extremely exciting and then it was

bizarre when it became successful because we didn't think of it –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: How long did it take?

BJ Novak: – as the show that, for the rest of our lives, we'd meet one or two

comedy fans that were like, "That's a classic." That's what we were

going for, for "Mr. Show." Cult status.

Tim Ferriss: And when did you feel the tipping point or was there a particular

event or moment or time when you were like, "Holy shit. This

thing is actually going to be successful."

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah. The beginning of the second season. It was around

December, I think. So we'd been out for over a year but only a few

episodes. Two things happened – they moved us from Tuesday to

Thursday which I felt was very important because… Now, the

night you're on doesn't matter so much in the DVR era but, back

then, my theory was that you wouldn't want to watch a show about

an office at the beginning of your work week.

Tim Ferriss: That's a fair assumption.

BJ Novak: It's not funny on Tuesday.

Tim Ferriss: That's a fair assumption.

BJ Novak: It's funny on Thursday – it's almost over. So there was that and

then the big thing was that the Apple ITunes store process began.

Because our cult audience was very young and tech savvy, they

made us a very big hit on the ITunes store even though we were

not a hit on NBC. And then people were walking around with

video iPods with "The Office" on it and they were sending each

other links to download it and stuff. And so it was really one of the

first shows to be an online hit in that way. And that really was this

proto-viral way that the word spread about the show.

Tim Ferriss: And so I have to ask a question that I've always wanted to ask

somebody involved with "The Office" because I have no idea how

this came to pass – but a fan sent me a link to a clip at one point.

"The Four Hour Work Week" came up in an episode of "The

Office" where there's this big debate going on amongst everyone

and someone says, "What do you mean? I sent you an email,"

pointing to Darryl.

And Darryl says, "I don't check email until 12:00 noon – Four

Hour Work Week." And then it zooms in on his face. Do you have

any idea how that happened? It's a very specific question but…

BJ Novak: I was in the room when that was pitched. I don't remember whose

it was. I thank you for being part of that joke. Working backwards

from what we must have meant, it was just funny. Just every little

thing is going wrong for Michael on this episode.

Tim Ferriss: It was really hilarious and really made my week.

BJ Novak: Awesome.

Tim Ferriss: I was very surprised to come across it. So "The Office," What are

some lessons learned through your experience at "The Office?"

What did you get better at and why?

BJ Novak: Yeah. Lessons learned?

Tim Ferriss: And you could have a particular person in mind if that helps.

BJ Novak: Yeah. Well, one lesson that I learned from that, as well as from

standup, was that you really never know how something is going to

play until you test it.

Scenes that felt like they were just airtight – that were hilarious

scenes in the writer's room – sometimes just would not work on set

and you had to learn to not be angry at it for not working. You had

to learn to listen to the audience and that's a major, major lesson.

There's no one smarter than the audience.

Tim Ferriss: So this is something that was filmed in front of a live audience?

BJ Novak: No, but there's a crew but you just feel it.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: You just feel it. If it's flat, it's flat.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: First, you do a table read of each episode so you have a big room

of people laughing or not laughing. And then, when you take it

down, if it's a rewrite scene or something, Steve Carrell says it and

you're just there – even just you and the cameraman – you're

smiling or you're not.

Tim Ferriss: Right.

BJ Novak: Or then you edit it and it works or it doesn't.

And that was, I think, a humbling lesson for someone who thought

of himself as a real writer because writing is really… It's just a

guess. And there's no penalty for doing your homework. So if you

want to test your standup at 1,000 rooms before you do it on TV or

if you want to test the stuff that you're writing for "The Office" in

as many groups as you can, do it because you're not smarter than

the audience. It's for the audience.

Tim Ferriss: Would you test your material that you were working on for "The

Office" in other environments?

BJ Novak: In little rooms, yeah. Everyone had their own office so Mindy and

I would read scenes out loud and just see if they sounded right.

Tim Ferriss: Right. You either see someone smile or not?

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: What about Steve Carrell? Did you observe anything in

particular…?

BJ Novak: Oh, well, I learned something from him which was one time I

wrote a bunch of jokes because a scene wasn't working and I was

the guy in charge of bringing "alts," as we called them – other

versions.

So I'd bring alts to the set and he'd looked at all of them and he

said, "I don't know. These just feel like jokes to me." And I was

like, "Well, yeah. They're jokes. That's what I do. That's what we

do." But, for him, comedy was a byproduct of authenticity. I would

compare it to the difference between a kid who knows he's cute

and a kid who doesn't. A kid who knows he's cute is not cute. A

kid who just says something without realizing he's being cute is

hilarious. And that's what he wanted "The Office" to feel like –

like these people don't even know how funny they are. So that was

important. I'm sure I'll come up with a lot more lesson because I

learned more on that than anything.

Tim Ferriss: Well, we can… let me think…

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: I can talk about the writing process that I got lessons from.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: I would love for you to talk about that.

BJ Novak: Well, the way that we would start a season – and I've adapted this

to many things I've done since – we'd start with what we would

call a "blue sky period" which was my favorite part of every year.

For two, three, four weeks – sometimes, if we had a long time –

every single day in the writer's room was just "what if." There's no

penalty, there's no "Maybe we can't," there's no, "But this one

conflicts with that one." "What if Dwight goes to the moon?"

"What if Jim and Pam get divorced?" Just every idea is valid for a

while and that was just an amazing period. And then –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: How long would that last?

BJ Novak: That would last… If we didn't have much time – because we had

different pre-production schedules – between two weeks and four

weeks.

Tim Ferriss: That's a decent stretch of time.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Was there structure to the "what ifs?" Was there somebody on a

whiteboard taking down favorites or…?

BJ Novak: Yeah, but it was improvised day to day. The show runner would

say, "Okay, we don't have anything for Dwight," or, "How about

everyone split up and come up with ten ideas for Ryan," or, "Let's

come up with more ensemble stories." There would be a leadership

that way. It wasn't just all sitting around but –

Tim Ferriss: What is an ensemble story? I feel like I know what both words

mean separately but I don't know…

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Sometimes, the whole cast is involved in one thing rather than A

Story, B Story.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: I see.

BJ Novak: So that was incredible and it really was creatively important. And I

try to replica that in everything I do – just not shut down any ideas

for a period.

Tim Ferriss: Just generate and not edit.

BJ Novak: Yeah. And then the best ideas will fuel you past the problems.

After a few weeks of blue sky, we would love some idea so much

it would be obvious what the best… Let's say we were going to

start with six stories right? It was obvious what the best 15 were

and we'd start talking more seriously. And then we'd look at which

ones do our love for the story carry us through the inevitable,

"Well, how could Dwight be here if he's also there?" – stuff like

that. But finding the love first and then letting that carry you

through the problem…

Tim Ferriss: Can you explain what you mean by that?

BJ Novak: Yeah. You find what you love about an episode or, in other things

I've one, a story idea or a standup bit.

You've got to just indulge, develop what you love about it so that,

when you then come up with, "Oh, but then we couldn't show this

on TV," or, "It is kind of contrived," or whatever it is, you'll love it

so much that you will have the inspiration to fix it.

Tim Ferriss: Got it. So you're developing the piece that you've fallen in love

with enough so that you can handle all the inevitable fixer-upper

issues.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yup. I do that with my other writing, too. I always start with what I

love and, if I'm stuck on a story, and I approach it the next day, I

never go to the hard part first. Some writers probably do. I go to

what's the one thing I'm proud of in this story?

Tim Ferriss: Could you give an example?

BJ Novak: Not off the top of my head but there might just be a –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Or a hypothetical?

BJ Novak: There might just be a joke, or a phrase, or a beautiful line that I'm

proud of that I'm just so certain everyone's going to think I'm

brilliant. And so I started that and I get excited and then I want

everything else to live up to that rather than start at the problem.

That's a personal thing. I'm very motivated by positive thinking.

Tim Ferriss: Were there any other –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: And ego – positive ego. Use your own ego to fuel yourself rather

than be an obstacle.

Tim Ferriss: What other approaches do you take in your work life – or personal

life – to maintain positivity or use positivity?

BJ Novak: I consider being in a good mood the most important part of my

creative process. So, right or wrong, I personally don't get up early

unless I'm awake early – or I have somewhere to be. I've read the

book – we talked about "Daily Rituals," which I love.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Mason Curry. Great book.

BJ Novak: I'm demoralized by how great people start their day very early.

Tim Ferriss: Were you also encouraged or demoralized by how many of them

were drug addicts?

BJ Novak: That was encouraging.

Tim Ferriss: It was 90 percent use methamphetamines.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Methamphetamines, right. But this venti Starbucks in front of me,

who's to say that doesn't have the same stimulation they used back

then?

I try to go to bed early and wake up early but if I need to sleep late

or take a walk in the morning or whatever, I find that being in a

good mood for creative work is worth the hours it takes to get in a

good mood. So often, when I was writing my books, someone

would check in and send me a text at 11:30 like, "How are you

doing? What's up?" and I'd say, "Powering up." I just feel the first

few hours are just getting into a good mood until I think, "Alright,

I have an idea that I'm excited about," or, "I have so much self-

loathing and caffeine that I'm like, "Got to do something."

Tim Ferriss: The self-loathing plus caffeine is a hell of a thing. One of my

friends, Kelly Starrett, who's a very well-known athletic trainer,

calls it "the cup of fear." So you take the self-loathing and then you

drink a cup of fear.

BJ Novak: Yeah. I'll tell you my No. 1 – while we're on this – my No. 1

creative productivity advice to anyone – anyone if it works for you.

I carry around a notebook – and, if I don't have a little notebook, I

have my phone – but I really divide my creative work into two

distinct phases which is the idea phase and the execution phase and

I do not let either interrupt the other. Yeah. That's the best way to

say it. So, if I'm taking a walk or I'm having a drink with a friend

and just some funny idea comes up – something that makes me

smile or some other impulse – I write it down and I never judge,

"Well, what would you do with this idea?" or, "How would you

end that joke?" Never. I just have this notebook and I feel like the

richest man in the world in terms of ideas. I fill it up, feel great,

never question it. Then, on a separate day, I sit down at 9:00 or

10:00 a.m. with a big cup of coffee at my desk, go through the

notebook, and I do my best with every idea in the book.

So I never am intimidated by things –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: When you say do your best, you're developing each one on a

separate piece of paper or something like that?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah. On my computer, usually, or continue an idea on the

computer that I left off the previous day. But first, I'll check my

notebook, "Oh, do I have any ideas for solutions?" or whatever.

So, to me, everything is idea and execution and, if you separate

idea and execution, you don't put too much pressure on either of

them.

Tim Ferriss: I was reading an article by Isaac Asimov about creativity and

groups versus solo creativity and very similar conclusion that he

jumped to – just keeping them separate.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yup.

Tim Ferriss: Now, do you have a particular type of notebook, particular type of

pen that you like?

BJ Novak: Yeah, I use the moleskin cahier – is that how you say it?

Tim Ferriss: I have no idea. How's it spelled?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: You can buy them… C-A-H-I-E-R. You can go on Amazon and

buy these three packs so they're much thinner than the typical

moleskin notebook so you can keep them in your pocket easier.

And you finish them so you feel more productive.

Tim Ferriss: You feel like you've accomplished something?

BJ Novak: Yeah, you can fill them up in a couple weeks. And then I have a

huge box of them but I use that and I use the Uniball Vision pen,

generally.

Tim Ferriss: And do you date them? How do you keep track of these

notebooks?

BJ Novak: What I do, I order different colors and I mix up the colors that I

order and then I buy, on Amazon, these huge batches of shape

stickers that teachers use to put on reports and stuff – stars, and

circles, and blue rectangles, and stuff – and, every time I start a

new notebook, I write my phone number on the first page in case

anyone finds it.

Tim Ferriss: Super important, yeah.

BJ Novak: Yup. And then I put a sticker in the top left corner of the book.

And that lets me know which one I'm one currently and then I have

a yellow – I'm sorry – I have a red box for…

I have a white box for untranscribed notebooks because then I

transcribe them on my computer and a red box for transcribed

notebooks. And I don't date them. And I always tell myself, "I

should date them, this is crazy," because when I go through the

white box, I'm jumping around six months ago, four months ago…

I'm not going in order. But I guess just I'm not going to question it

because something about the creative process I just don't want to

date them. I just don't know.

Tim Ferriss: Interesting. Maybe that would create some bias against older

material.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: For the same reason that I take dates on my blog posts and I moved

them from the top as a small italicized line at the bottom and my

traffic jumped 20, 30 percent because people are no longer are

biased against older material.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: That's interesting. That's very interesting. That's something on The

List App, too, we keep an eye on.

Tim Ferriss: What, and we're going to talk a lot about The List App –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: No trying to rush you.

Tim Ferriss: No, we're going to get there. I love the red box and white box.

When you develop these or do your best with them, as you said, on

the computer, are you doing this in a particular app or program or

is it limited to whatever your current focus is – say, a book, or a

screenplay, or a film?

BJ Novak: I use Microsoft Word – same reason my dad used WordStar – it's

just what I learned and got in the habit of. And I use Final Draft for

screenplays because everyone does. I would like – I know there's

other software out there – I would like something that combines

the two because, often, I would like to write a paragraph and then

throw in dialogue easily, but it's not worth it to me to investigate

and switch.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, there's a tool that I've used for my last few books that I've

found extremely helpful. It's not as focused on screenwriting as,

say, Final Draft – although people do use it for that – called

Scrivener. I don't know if you've ever seen this?

BJ Novak: Yeah, I have heard of it. Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: I've used it for my last two books and I found it extremely helpful

for that format.

And I think it's mostly used by playwrights, I want to say, but there

are screenwriters who use it. So when you –

BJ Novak: Mike Grosso, I was going to mention, who invented Firefox –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Firefox, yeah.

BJ Novak: He's an investor on The List App and I've been trying to get him

for years to develop with me a screenplay writing software because

he's actually a terrific writer and he wrote the "Silicon Valley" spec

script that he put on Twitter which is such a tech way to get your

spec out there. But it was great and I think he would be the guy to

crack it because he's the writer and also the software developer. I

think he could do it in an afternoon.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Where is he based out of? Is he still in the Bay area or is he…?

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: I need to actually spend some time with him at some point.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Oh, he's the best.

Tim Ferriss: He was very, very kind when – I think it was 2007 – when he gave

me a quote for "The Four Hour Work Week," and I feel very

indebted to him.

BJ Novak: He's awesome.

Tim Ferriss: So, if you're hearing this, thank you so much. I really owe you a

coffee, and dinner, and a bottle of wine, and probably more.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: How do you think of yourself?

I guess it depends on, perhaps what project you're working on but

which of these many activities and artistic projects – crafts that

you've attempted – do you most identify with?

BJ Novak: Writer.

Tim Ferriss: Writer?

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Any particular type or is it just across the board writer?

BJ Novak: Probably comedy writer, to be honest. For two reasons – one, is

just it's the identity that I come from. I think it was Woody Allen

so said, "I do these different things but if you woke me up and

shook me in the middle of the night and said, 'What are you?' I'd

say a writer." I definitely feel like that.

Tim Ferriss: That's a good fact. I should have rephrased my question to mimic

Woody Allen's wording.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, you can ask anyone that. "If someone woke you in the

middle of the night, and shook you and said, 'What's your job?'

what would you say?" Or the simpler way is, "What do you put on

your passport or your customs declaration?" I always put writer.

But I think that everything that I do is a version of writing, even if

I'm acting, I'm writing the way that I think this character would act.

Do you know what I mean?

Tim Ferriss: Of course.

BJ Novak: Or, if I have an idea, I really feel like idea and execution – that, to

me, is writing.

Tim Ferriss: If you were teaching a… let's see, freshman seminar at Harvard on

comedy writing, what would the curriculum look like?

BJ Novak: Oh, great, great question. Well, P.J. O'Rourke, who was one of the

big National Lampoon" editors, said that, if he taught writing –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Is that "The Confederacy of Dunces?" Did he write that? No? Am I

making that up?

BJ Novak: No. But he might have written the introduction to it or something.

Tim Ferriss: Alright.

BJ Novak: So he said that, if he ever taught English, he would assign parodies

because that's when you really learn something is to parody it. So I

would probably assign parodies of literature. I would –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Are there any particular parodies that…

BJ Novak: Just whatever you're studying in your other classes – parody that.

Tim Ferriss: I see.

BJ Novak: And, really, I think it would open you up. I think mischief is just so

important in comedy.

It's really… There's just something like, "Am I really allowed to

say that?" That's just the cool thing. "Am I really allowed to hear

that?" I could pontificate. I know a couple things I feel I have

discovered about comedy.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, this is…

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: First of all, the most important thing is it's a physical… It's like sex

in that it's about whether the other person is enjoying it or not – or

you're enjoying it. You could say, "Do this and that," and then, if

neither of you has a good time, you couldn't insist to me, like, "But

I had good sex." No, you didn't. I gave you my best advice like,

"Touch her here, and take your time, and whisper this." I could do

that but you'll know if it's good sex or not. These are just tips. It's

the physical reaction that you're going for. So there's that, whatever

you teach, it's like, "You'll feel it. You'll feel it or you'll hear it.

You'll know."

So do it a lot and probably don't take this class too seriously. One

thing I've definitely learned about comedy – and I don't know how

it applies to… maybe it applies to editing more than it does to

writing or finding what's good comedy – but I believe that a good

comedy operates the exact same way a good mystery operates

which is the punchline should be something that would be right in

front of your face the whole time and you never would have put

your finger on it.

Tim Ferriss: It's like the red doorknobs in "The Sixth Sense."

BJ Novak: Oh, the red doorknobs. Yeah, exactly. "Of course, he was dead the

whole time. How did I not get that?" That excitement, that

elation… or like, "It was the butler. It was the narrator," –

whatever it was. That's the best comedy when someone points out

something and you're like, "Oh my god, that was so obvious. I

never would have gotten it." Another thing is that observations are

really the currency of comedy.

Anything you do, if you observe something that touches a chord

with somebody that has not been expressed, you can turn that into

a movie, you can turn that into a plot, you can turn that into a one-

liner. But anytime you observe a good new observation, that's what

fuels 99 percent of comedy. And the other 1 percent is just people

falling down or whatever.

Tim Ferriss: And are there any particular comics or comedy writers who are

very good, in your mind, at the red doorknob effect – so hitting

you with punchlines that have been there all along but they do a

good job –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Well, Aziz Ansari has a bit about marriage that I find brilliant. I

think it was one or two specials ago on Netflix where he's like, "If

we invented marriage now – if no one had heard of marriage and

you proposed it to a girl, you would freak her out beyond belief.

'I want a vow that will never, ever sleep with anyone else. And I

want rings on our fingers to symbolize it. And I want a priest to be

there and everyone we've ever met. And there'll be a ceremony.

It'll be in the newspaper.'" That is so funny to me because it's

completely true and I never would have noticed it. Louis C.K. is

brilliant at pointing this stuff out – saying things that is how you

felt but you never would have thought of it. But even an abstract

one-liner comic like Zach Galifinakas who I tried to see whenever

I could when I moved to L.A. – even those are like, "Right, that

phrase could mean that," or, "Why'd you – "

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Sure.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Even that is an observation even though it's just about language.

Tim Ferriss: That's true. Right. Like "24-hour banking – who has time for that?"

The Steven Wright approach.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, right. You could look at it that way.

Tim Ferriss: You know who's really, really good at that is – now that I'm getting

a finer feel for what you meant – is…

I suppose perhaps the majority of really good standup comics are

good at this, I don't know – but why am I blanking – Dimitri

Martin.

BJ Novak: Oh, yeah. A great writer.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Dimitri Martin is really good at the word play. So you mentioned

movies, we've mentioned List App a few times and I feel like we

should dig into that because my next question would be related

to… and maybe by means of example we can get into List App. I

was going to ask you for screenwriters, what would your

curriculum look like and you put up a list recently – and maybe

you can explain the app as well – but you put up a list of some of

your favorite movies.

BJ Novak: Right.

Tim Ferriss: So you had "Adaptation," you had "Naked Gun," down towards the

bottom and –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Bottom of the top five.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it's a top five.

BJ Novak: It was "Adaptation," "Ferris Bueller's Day Off," "Pulp Fiction,"

"Casablanca," "The Naked Gun."

This is just personal what… if I were really going to die tomorrow

and they said you could play a couple movies. I'm not trying to

impress anybody – it's not film history, it's just me.

Tim Ferriss: Now would those films correspond to the five screenplays that you

would suggest people read if you were assigning them?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Wow. Yeah, probably. Probably the writing is front and center for

all them. Now, "Adaptation" is brilliant because it breaks all the

rules and comments on all the rules. So maybe I wouldn't teach

that first – that's like –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Also, if anyone says, "I want to be a writer," at least, for me, I

would say, "Watch that movie."

BJ Novak: Yeah, it'll talk you out of it.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. "I could really use a donut but god, I'm so hungry."

BJ Novak: I know. I guess all of these movies break the form and maybe that's

why… "Casablanca" probably – I don't know enough about film

history, but it probably broke the form. Now it is the form. So

maybe I would… But there are weird things in that. "Pulp Fiction,"

obviously, completely breaks the form chronologically. "Ferris

Bueller," he narrates the movie to camera.

"The Naked Gun" just they'll do anything for a laugh. I guess that's

formal, in a way. "Adaptation" completely commenting on itself.

So, yeah, maybe, I think, one lesson in all of that is it's not about

the rules – it's about you and the audience, anything that you do.

Tim Ferriss: This is maybe out of left field, a little bit – have you seen

"Memento?"

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Did you enjoy that movie?

BJ Novak: I thought it was okay.

Tim Ferriss: So, when I saw it, I really enjoyed it but a lot of people hold that

up as an example of a movie that broke the rules where it didn't

work, or it was trying too hard to break the rules or something like

that.

BJ Novak: I think it's a great… If I were him – if I was Nolan and that was my

first big movie – I'd be very proud that I got everyone's attention.

It's extremely clever as an idea and, if that's enough to give you

pleasure watching it or if that's enough to get your attention to

watch it and then you got pleasure watching it, I agree the premise

is fantastically clever. I just wasn't personally especially moved

watching the story. And he's so big it won't' matter if I criticize him

but I have a real problem with the Chris Nolan worship in cinema.

I think that's a writer I would never teach if I were teaching

screenwriting.

Tim Ferriss: Why's that?

BJ Novak: Says the guy who's never written a screenplay. Because a movie

should be a pleasurable experience – that is my one sentence

answer – and I find his movies cold and formal. And I find his

demeanor, as a public director, cold and formal. And please don't

make this the headline of your podcast.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: No, it's good.

BJ Novak: If someone listens all the way here, they can see that everyone has

opinions. But I find his movies completely un-pleasurable.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Exclusive to TMZ.

BJ Novak: Yeah. And I feel that the formality has conned people into

reverence when, in fact, no one was smiling at any of these Batman

movies that everyone gave such acclaim to and no one was smiling

at "Inception," and no one understood "Interstellar." I am a well-

educated guy. I have a real interest in science. I write screen stories

for a living and I could not follow this so who is following this? A

movie should be entertaining you and inviting you in. So that's a

screenwriter I would not teach.

Tim Ferriss: Got it. How did you get into tech and why tech?

BJ Novak: I find tech – and, again, this is the formal rules of anything… First

of all, tech is the best field at being the first to tell you that there

are no rules. It's about what you make and how people respond to

it which I really love.

And I think tech is leading the way for entertainment when you

realize, "Oh, everything is about…" Very soon, on the Apple TV,

you'll be able to say, "The Mindy Project," and you won't have any

idea what network it's on. It's all about whether Mindy Kaling –

full disclosure, a good friend of mine – it's all about whether

Mindy Kaling has made a good show, gotten the budget, gotten the

cast, convinced them to do it – that's a big deal – and made it well

– that's a very big deal – and gotten enough publicity for it that you

are curious about it but that's it.

And there has been a lot of bullshit in terms of, "What night is it on

and what's the competition like and how is it…? And who picked it

up and why? And who funded it and how much did they get? And

is it going to make syndication?" and that noise has nothing to do

with the product and the audience. And I think tech is leading the

way in removing that. And I think tech is really – the reason I've

always been drawn to it and always pitched every idea I ever had

in tech to my friends in tech – is because it seemed like a utopian

version of, "You have an idea, and you see if it's a good idea."

Just like with standup, just like with writing scenes for "The

Office" – "I think this is a great idea but I won't know until it goes

to the set and it succeeds or fails. Or I bring it onstage and no one

laughs or everyone does laugh." That, to me, is the biggest

pleasure – having an idea and seeing if you're right. And so tech

seemed to me you could have a huge idea and it could be right,

whereas, in other fields, a huge idea, you need to be at a huge scale

to even try it out. So that's why I met Blake Cross, because in 2006

or 2007, I had a friend, Charlie Cheever who worked at Facebook

–

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Sure.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: And I said, "Can I see Facebook? Can I have a tour?" And I would

cultivate these friendships and these guys, to me, that was…

I think that was what a lot of people looked at show business in the

world I was in and thought, "That's so creative," I would look at

this world and think, "Wow, you can have an idea and then, if it

works, it works. That's so beautiful."

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, there is a –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: And, of course, like everything, it turns out to be way more

complicated –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: – but, I think, less complicated than other fields.

Tim Ferriss: And less and less complicated from the standpoint of testing ideas,

right?

BJ Novak: Correct.

Tim Ferriss: Because you have cheaper and cheaper rentable infrastructure –

whether it's services or otherwise. You have global talent market –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Right.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: – where you can use people remotely, or locally, or in some

distributed fashion like automatic which I advise. The guys who do

wordpress.com, they have 400 plus people who are all distributed.

And then you have the Kickstarters and other means of funding

that weren't available five, ten years ago.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Right. So if you had an idea for a store 20 years ago, you really put

your whole life on hold to pursue that – a compromise of a

compromise of that idea for a store. And now, you can make that

store.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, you can do it in an afternoon and then see how it goes. So

can you describe, then, what it is that you're working on right now?

BJ Novak: So this is – I've tried to get you on and I know we'll get you on

when we have the Android – this is The List App and it's as simple

as it sounds. It's li.st is our domain so, eventually, when we have

web, we'll probably just want to be known as List. But it's really

that simple and we aim to be that universal just a place for lists,

socially. So my original idea was that we all have these lists in our

phones, in our notebooks, in our minds, of what are the good

restaurants in L.A, etc. – I wish I could see those lists on the

phones, or whatever, on the phones of the people I care about or,

occasionally, a celebrity or a publication that I would turn to for

this type of thing. And I wanted a place… It seemed so simple to

me, "Why hasn't it been done?" I thought. "A place where you

could put these lists and everyone would put them and you could

surf them and read them."

And that is, essentially, what we built. So, in this case, yeah, I

think I'm right. I'm not saying I'm a genius or anything at all. It

seemed like this was something worth testing. And if you do it

right and someone shows you an idea and you say, "Oh, not that,

but yes, that." Then, like anything else, the most important thing is

who you partner with. And so I knew I didn't know this field so I

hired a company to make screenshots because everyone I pitched

this to treated me the way I would treat them if a tech person

pitched me a good idea for a TV show. I'd say, "That sounds like a

good idea. I don't think you understand what it takes. Do you have

a director? Do you have funding? Do you have a cast? Do you

know how to do a rewrite?" "No, no, it's just an idea. Shouldn't

someone make…" You know. So that's how they treated me and I

thought, "Well, I need to show that I'm serious and that it would be

good."

So I asked friend after friend, "Do you know anyone who could

make mockups for me?" So I hired this great company called Two

Toasters in New York.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Two Toasters?

BJ Novak: Yup. And, apparently, it's named after, coincidentally, an "Office"

reference where Stanley ends up with two toasters because he

bought one for Phyllis' wedding. But I didn't even remember the

reference when I met them. So I drew up – I'm not a good artist –

but I drew very simple… Again, this is not anything innovative. I

drew up what a list would look like – very similar to Twitter, to

Instagram, to Tumblr – a vertical feed of lists and how you'd

search for them, and how you'd add a suggestion to someone else's,

and how you'd compose. And I asked, "Could you make a mockup

of each of these main screens?" So I paid them to make them and

then I would walk around… When I'd tell people the idea, and

they'd say, "Yeah, that sounds good," I'd show them. And they

would try to tap and they couldn't because it was just a mockup

and that's how I knew, "Okay, they want to be using this. I showed

them that I'm serious. They know what it feels like to want to see

the next screen."

Then the guy at Two Toasters, Simon, hosts a tech breakfast in

New York once a month. I was going to be in town for that tech

breakfast so I went to it, talked to everyone. I'd say about 49

percent of the people were way too nice to me because I was a

celebrity. About 49 percent of the people were way too hard on me

because I was a celebrity and, "What am I doing here?" Then there

was one guy who took me seriously, who met me at my level and

said, "I like it for these reasons. I think these are my concerns."

And his name was Matt Witheiler and he was a VC at Flybridge

which doesn't do this kind of thing, generally, but he was

interested. So I asked if I could have lunch with him. I almost

canceled. I was hung over. I was like, "What am I doing? I'm here

to do press for a TV show and why am I pursuing this crazy tech

thing?" I'm like, "Everyone wants to do a startup." I almost

cancelled but I didn't.

I show up to meet him and he says, "I know the cofounder for you.

I don't think you can get him but it's worth a try. I've been trying to

convince this guy to leave his job forever but I think he might like

this because he's done stuff like this before." And his name was

Dev Flaherty. He ran product at Fab. He had previously worked for

a map-based travel startup and the original idea for this was that

travel lists, of course, would be big. So I said, "Let me try." I was

leaving the next day. I emailed Dev. I had dinner with him at the

Ace Hotel in New York – the Breslin – and we sat down –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Lots of fatty food.

BJ Novak: Yeah. Right away, I was like, "I'm doing it with this guy or I'm not

doing it." We wore the exact same watch – an IWC Pilot so a nice

simple watch with great classic design – we ordered a bowl of

bourbon – each of us – so we have the same taste. And, just like

Matt Witheiler, he was hard on the idea and respected the idea,

asking all the right questions.

And he could talk – and his wife was a television writer – and he

was interested in what I was interested in, and, tellingly, he was a

"Parks and Recreation" fan but not an "Office" fan. So he liked the

kinds of things I liked but he was not impressed by my celebrity.

He heard I was somebody but he didn't care – he cared about Ron

Swanson. So he was adjacent – he was the perfect match. And he

said, "Let me think about it." And then his wife kept getting up for

jobs in… Halle Grossman, this fantastic writer – I think she's a

fantastic writer. She's a fantastic talker, and thinker, and she's on

great shows so I assume she's a great writer. So she kept getting

more and more attention in L.A. and then she was up for this huge

writing job in L.A. on an HBO show and no one was rooting for

that job harder than me. I'm praying that Halle gets hired because I

know, if Dev moves to L.A., I'm sure he'll do this. And, sure

enough, she got the job and he finally committed to doing this.

And he's really been leading the overall… Why I think this is so

good is because of Dev. I have a lot to do with the community, I

obviously have a lot to do with the conception, and I argue for all

my tastes all the time but 90 plus percent of the time, Dev has

already arrived there and added more things that I should have

thought of.

Tim Ferriss: What are some of the more popular lists that have popped up?

BJ Novak: Well, I can look at the trending lists right now.

Tim Ferriss: And I'll mention one to people just – because I found this actually

very, very cool and helpful – which was a list which you put on

Twitter or retweeted, I think. It was Sheryl Strayed, writer of

"Wild" which was made into a movie, and she put out a list of

writing prompts, assignments, or I think they were more sentences

or questions that you could use for writing exercises. And what is

your Twitter handle?

BJ Novak: @BJNovak.

Tim Ferriss: So very simple, @BJNovak. So download the app and also follow

BJ on Twitter because he highlights, also, quite a few different

lists. But that list in and of itself…

BJ Novak: Yeah, that was great. And she also did a list that was very moving

which is "Objects Found in My Mother's Car at the Time of Her

Death" – just a pen, a lipstick, tickets to this play. I don't remember

exactly what it was but I remember being just so stunned by the

simplicity of that power in list form. And there are a lot of writers

on it so there's a literary thing. But I'm looking here – it's a mix of

publications doing lists, celebrities doing lists, and, of course,

mostly just regular folks. But trending right now, The Washington

Post made a list of "The Things Donald Trump Has Called on

America to Boycott." He's called for a lot of boycotts over the

years. It's very interesting.

Including the company that makes his clothing line which he didn't

realize. Voxx made a list "What NASA Picked to Explain Our

World to Aliens." So what they put on Voyager 1 and 2 – just cool

lists. A girl named Jena Martin I know made a list "Favorite

Howard Stern Interviews," and that's an open list so you can make

a suggestion on that list and, if she like it, she double taps it.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: What are the top on the Howard Stern list?

BJ Novak: The Howard Stern interviews? Lady Gaga, Bill Hader, Billy Joel –

which was a great one, I heard that one – Jonah Hill, Jerry Seinfeld

– great interviewer – James Taylor – I did not know that although

I've seen him be dark and funny – Chris Martin, apparently. So

some of them are very helpful recommendations – a lot of books

lists.

Tim Ferriss: And some of them are very funny. Now, correct me if I'm –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Some very –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Correct me if I have faulty memory here but I remember we were

chatting on the phone a few months ago and was it Lena Dunham

who had "Dead People I'd Have Sex With"?

BJ Novak: Oh, yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Am I making that up?

BJ Novak: Yes, she did and I'm looking right now. Anthony Bourdain made

one that I thought was really funny.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, this was… What was it? Was that "Four Spy Novels – Three

Written by Spies, One by a Non-Spy"?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, he did that. He's a big reader and writer, obviously. His most

recent one is called, "Hotel Slut: That's Me" and it's very much his

writing style but the hotels he will made an excuse to go to that

town if he can stay in the following hotels including one in Port-

au-Prince, Haiti, Chateau Marmont here in L.A., the Raleigh in

Miami. So his lists are great. He did one –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Anything in New York?

BJ Novak: Let me see what his New York choice is.

Tim Ferriss: I'm heading to New York shortly so maybe I'll try to…

BJ Novak: There are a lot of lists of New York hotels but I… And there's also

a list of "If You Ever Stay at the Bowery" – which is my favorite

hotel there.

Tim Ferriss: The Bowery's great.

BJ Novak: There are two people, at least, have made lists of "The Best Rooms

at the Bowery."

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Cool.

BJ Novak: "1403 has this… and 1401 has that…"

Tim Ferriss: Oh that's very useful.

BJ Novak: Very useful so you –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: I tried to stay at the Bowery. They were sold out for this upcoming

trip. It's unfortunate.

BJ Novak: So it's very useful and also very creative. And there are great

people behind it.

Tim Ferriss: For someone who downloads the app, what would you suggest to

get them a very good taste of the types of content? What would

you suggest they do?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah. I would suggest… It's a very quick signup flow. Just sign up

and there's a "Recommended Follow" menu and they'll take you to

that screen automatically but one of the things you can do is you

can hit "Follow All" – it's our top 100 diverse accounts. So I'll read

them right now – not all 100 but the first batch. Lena Dunham,

Mindy Kaling, "The New York Times," Jimmy Fallon, "The

Onion," Anthony Bourdain, "The New Yorker," "CNN," Andy

Cohen, "Vogue," Snoop, Sheryl Strayed, Rachel Ray, "People,"

John Mayer, "Wired," TED Talks. Not everyone's going to like all

of these but then just unfollow.

Because it will give you a real assortment. And there are a lot of

civilians on there, too, just people that are making crazy personal

or advice lists. And so I would just say sign up, hit "Follow All

Recommended”, and just see what you like.

Tim Ferriss: Very cool. Do you have – as we have a plane zooming overhead –

do you have a little bit more time for some rapid fire questions?

BJ Novak: Yeah, sure.

Tim Ferriss: Alright. Cool. So we're going to shift gears just a little bit.

Successful – when you hear the word successful, who's the first

person who comes to mind and why?

BJ Novak: Shakespeare.

Tim Ferriss: Why?

BJ Novak: Because he made things that were both moving, and permanent,

and popular.

Tim Ferriss: What was your –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Ah, both – three things. Shows you how far I am from that.

Tim Ferriss: What was your thesis on? Did you write a senior thesis?

BJ Novak: Whoa, you did your homework. Yeah, mine was on – it's very

specific – "In the films of 'Hamlet,' how they treat the line 'To be

or not to be.'" Because that line already has a lot of mystery within

the play exactly what it means but then you add all the cultural…

If you pay to see a movie of "Hamlet," you're waiting for "To be or

not to be" the whole time. So how do the cultural expectations

affect the interpretation of that line?

Tim Ferriss: Got it. Yeah, the bard. There are a lot of people who make me

want to cry into a pillow as a writer who's trying to improve. That's

certainly way up at the top of the list.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: What book or books do you give most often as gifts?

BJ Novak: There's a book called "The Oxford Book of Aphorisms" which I

love. It's just the most well-edited, brilliant one-liners from history

and you can spend hours on a page or you can just flip through it. I

give that one a lot.

Tim Ferriss: "The Oxford Book of Aphorisms?"

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: And now I'm going to give "Daily Rituals" – the book we

mentioned a lot. To anyone who is creative or ambitious, you take

so much solace in seeing all the different processes people just do.

What did Charles Dickens do every day? What'd he do every day?

What did Darwin do every day? What did Steve Jobs do every

day? It's just so reassuring to see, "Eh, everyone's got their own

system."

Tim Ferriss: And it also is very reassuring to see how dysfunctional how many

of them are.

BJ Novak: Yes. It's depressing, too.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, depressing in some cases. Great book. I actually produced

the audiobook for people who want to try the audio. If you could

change one thing about yourself, what would it be?

BJ Novak: I'd love to be great looking.

Tim Ferriss: You're not a bad looking guy.

BJ Novak: I'm not terrible looking, thank you, but I look at James Franco and

he does all the things he does and I'm like, "Man."

Tim Ferriss: But it's James Franco. Well, look at his brother. It's a handsome

family.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: No, I'm saying… Look.

Tim, if I could have whatever I wanted, I could lie and say, "Oh,

I'd learn to be better at empathy." No, I'd be fucking awesome

looking and then I would… If you're James Franco, you could do

anything and people are like, "Well, it's pretty interesting."

Anything. And I wish I had that extra level. I'm just answering this

honestly.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: No, I appreciate the honesty.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: I would be fucking awesome looking.

Tim Ferriss: This is good. Do you have any bad habits that you're currently

working on?

BJ Novak: Yeah. Of course. I zone out in any conversation when I'm not

holding a microphone. I zone out easily. I just love daydreaming

and I think it's so indulgent, in a good way, to the creative process

but then you get used to that indulgence when someone else

deserves your attention so I try to be better at that.

Tim Ferriss: How do you go about trying to become better at that? It's just a

conscious decision not to zone out?

BJ Novak: Good question. I don't have a process yet. I'm just always berating

myself for it.

Tim Ferriss: I do the same thing so; if you come up with anything, please let me

know. Words or phrases that you overuse?

BJ Novak: Pretty.

Tim Ferriss: That's my one, too.

BJ Novak: Really?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, I hate it. I started trying to fix it by saying –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Do you use it as an adverb or an adjective? How do you use it?

Tim Ferriss: Adverb.

BJ Novak: See, I use it as an adjective.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, okay.

BJ Novak: But I don't mind using it.

Tim Ferriss: Okay. I say, "Oh, that's pretty interesting. Oh, that's pretty…"

BJ Novak: Right.

Tim Ferriss: And I've tried to fix it at one point but forcing myself to say

"fucking" afterward so I'd say, "That's pretty fucking interesting.

That's pretty fucking smart."

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, that's good. I –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: And, eventually, it short circuited for a while. It's definitely a…

BJ Novak: I overuse "like" which is so embarrassing because it's not a very

masculine word to overuse but I do.

Tim Ferriss: Like as a verb? Or like as a…?

BJ Novak: Like as in… I don't even know what it is, it's a stutter, really.

Like…

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Oh, I see.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Do you have anything in writing, long form, let's say in a book –

one of mine is, for instance, "That having been said," or some…?

BJ Novak: Sure. I overwrite a lot and I need to pare it down.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Got you. Too many revisions?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: I don't have any one phrase but… No, I mean I just do stuff like

that because it sounds – I don't know – it gives extra elegance to a

stupid idea and then I need to go back and be like, "You know

what…?"

Tim Ferriss: Puts a monkey in a suit, right?

BJ Novak: Yeah, it's something I learned on "The Office," too. If a scene

should be two pages and it's four pages, it's a bad scene. Because

you keep writing when you haven't hit it. So, if it's a great scene, it

might just be a two-line exchange. "I love you." "I don't love you."

Whoa. That's a scene. But if the scene is like, "So I was thinking,

the other day, my feelings…" That's not a scene.

Tim Ferriss: You know it's not working?

BJ Novak: Yeah. So if you overwrite, it's often a sign that you have not hit it

and you're still looking for it.

Tim Ferriss: What is the best purchase that you've made in recent memory for

less than $100.00?

BJ Novak: An ice cube try that has giant ice cubes in it. Anytime I'm at a bar

and they have a big ice cube, I feel like, "Oh, this should cost

$100, this is so nice," and then I thought, "Well, wait, the rubber

ice cube tray shouldn't be any more expensive. It's just a different

shape mold. So I go on Amazon and, sure enough, Tivolo, I think

is the company, for $7, it's six huge ice cubes. And, if anyone

comes over and I make them a drink, they have one huge ice cube

in their glass and it's like I have a fancy bar. I love it.

Tim Ferriss: Do you have any favorite documentaries?

BJ Novak: Do you mind if I look at The List App?

Tim Ferriss: I don't mind if you look at The List App.

BJ Novak: Let me see if I have my documentaries on The List App. I love

documentaries and…

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Just to buy you some time – I'll throw one out. Well, I loved "Man

on Wire" when it came out.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Okay. I haven't seen that.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Very uniquely put together.

And the same team made a documentary subsequent to that called,

"Project Nim" which was about a chimpanzee – I think this was in

the '70s – who was effectively raised as a human child to see if

Nim, in this case, could – I think it was Nim Chompzki or

something, Nim Chimpsky, they called him – in any case, could

acquire language. And it's just a fascinating documentary on

human thought, human interaction with this chimp and so on.

BJ Novak: On my list, "Catfish" – it's a cliché but "Catfish" is a brilliant

documentary.

Tim Ferriss: I still haven't seen it.

BJ Novak: It's brilliant. It's generation defining and it's just become a term but

it earned that term. Brilliant movie. "To Be and to Have" is on my

list – a beautiful simple film about a one-room schoolhouse in

France and just what happens over the course of a year. This really

little story but it really holds your attention and give you the spirit

of the place. And, if I choose one more…

Oh, you know what a really cool one is? It's called "The

Overnighters" and it's about the oil fields in North Dakota. It came

out a couple of years ago on this pastor who has a church there.

The Bakken oil fields which is probably bigger than the gold rush

in the 1800's. It's just now that you can frack, there's so much oil in

North Dakota that a whole culture… You can rent a garage in

North Dakota for $250,000. There's so much money there and such

a rush to be close to it. That's a really interesting documentary.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: "The Overnighters?"

BJ Novak: Yup.

Tim Ferriss: So I usually ask about morning routines but I want to ask about –

and you can feel free to answer that – but I'm so curious to dig a

little bit into your powering up.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: So how would you power up to get into the zone?

BJ Novak: I have a venti Pike Place coffee from Starbucks. I find that –

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: How is it made, just black?

BJ Novak: Yup. Black. I find that brewing my own coffee at home is so

unpredictable.

It's like getting artisanal Tylenol. I want to know what my dose is.

You wouldn't be like, "Oh, I made some Tylenol." No. Give me

two Tylenol. So I want a standard dose of caffeine.

Tim Ferriss: You want your standard loading dose of caffeine?

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Got it.

BJ Novak: So I have a venti from Starbucks.

Tim Ferriss: Now, when you have it, you mean you purchase it or do you just

down the thing like a shot of tequila?

BJ Novak: I either drive to the Starbucks… No, it takes an hour because I will

sometimes read the paper – recently, "The Wall Street Journal"

which I find really good, especially on weekends – or "The New

York Times" – it's my favorite and I usually read that online. And

just emails and I turn on music. I usually listen to the "Morning

Becomes Eclectic" on KCRW.

Tim Ferriss: "Morning Becomes Eclectic?"

BJ Novak: Yeah. It's this great show from 9:00 to 12:00 every weekday –

commercial free, just cool new music. I also have a list the app of

music that I work to. And they have a 24-hour station, too.

Tim Ferriss: Do you have another one that you can pull from memory that…?

BJ Novak: Yeah. I will often do Pandora "Of Early Blues."

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Early Blues?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Which I find good to just… So, yeah, I listen to music or Sirius

XM 35 is indie music that I like. So you just listen to music – it's

just about being in a good mood. I slowly drink that Starbucks. I

sometimes take a walk around Runyon Canyon or my

neighborhood, text, email. If there's a book I'm reading, I'll read a

couple chapters. And then, eventually, I'm just like, "Alright."

Either I'm excited by an idea or it's 3:30 and this powering up

turned into lunch, turned into a workout and I'm like, "Goddamnit,

I cleared out my whole day and it's 3-fucking-30 and I haven't

written anything?" And then I just start looking at my files and

then I finally get going. So, yeah, the power up can have a happy

or a sad ending.

Tim Ferriss: Is there a particular time of day that you find that you tend to do

your best writing? For me, it's always been super late night. I don't

know why that is – for synthesis. For note-taking, for interviewing,

I can do that whenever. But, for synthesis, I've always been a 10:00

p.m. to 5:00 a.m. guy for whatever reason.

BJ Novak: Huh. It's hard for me to get myself to work later in the day so

probably my most productive time is 11:00 to 2:00 but the creative

ideas can come any time. I never know when those are coming.

Tim Ferriss: Let's see here. If people wanted to watch, besides "The Office,"

one or two TV shows for good comedy writing, any particular

recommendations?

BJ Novak: I love this show right now called, "The Grinder" with Rob Lowe

and Fred Savage.

Tim Ferriss: Yup.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: That's pretty good writing. Season 4 of "Mr. Show" is brilliant

sketch writing.

Tim Ferriss: Could you explain what you mean by sketch? I apologize if I –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Oh, sketch like SNL.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Got it.

BJ Novak: Yeah, I'd say… Yeah, those are pretty great ones.

Tim Ferriss: Cool. Just a few more questions.

BJ Novak: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: What historical figure do you most identify with?

BJ Novak: In my hopes, Ben Franklin because he started in comedy and

then… I make a joke about this in my standup act. He really took it

to the next level. He wrote "Poor Richard's Almanac" and he was

known as a comedy writer. And then he ended up discovering

electricity and having his face on money. That is really… And he

remained a witty guy. So my hope is that I can do some shadow

where I can have ambitious positive spirited ideas but it won't be

like, "Oh, now he's lost his sense of humor." Ben Franklin always

had a sense of humor and he wasn't ashamed to experiment with

lightning. That's really cool but, even in my most egotistical, I

don't actually identify with him. He's just if I'm psyching myself

up…

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Aspirational?

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, aspirational figure.

[Crosstalk]

Tim Ferriss: Aspirational figure.

BJ Novak: So probably someone more… I don't know. Funny and dark and…

I don't know.

Tim Ferriss: For someone recognizing that no path is quite the same for people

that, certainly, that I've met in entertainment, or comedy, or

whatnot – from going from school to the industry – if we can call it

an industry – of entertainment, let's just said you had a promising

high school senior who's a gifted writer and they think they want to

be in comedy writing. What advice would you give them?

BJ Novak: A bunch of things. One piece of advice that I stand by that I've

given to a bunch of people is to think of it as two things – you need

to get people's attention and you need to be able to back it up. I

feel like most people who want to get into comedy, what they want

to do these days is get a staff job on a TV comedy show. So, to do

that, you need to think like the person hiring you. If you were

given your own show, you'd panic. "This is my one big shot. It's

got to be hilarious." You'd hire your most loyal financed friends

first, and then you'd ask around, "Who worked on my favorite

show?" "Who's the best, best person?" and those names would

come to you through an agent or something. And then, anyone that

you saw or heard or you were at a standup show and this guy was

hilarious, or someone sent you this internet video – you just don't

know.

Or you'd ask around and someone would send you something. So

the first thing is get their attention. That would mean be friends

with somebody or have collaborated with somebody. Another

thing is you might want to make something. For me, it was standup

but I don't know what it is for anyone else. It could be probably

some internet video. I feel like that's the best way you can be

completely wild and get seen. But make something truly great that

could be anything – absolutely anything. Then, once you have

someone's attention, they're going to want to be sure that they're

not taking a crazy bet on some kid that made some funny video

who then gets in a writer's room and doesn't know what to do. So

that generally means have a spec script which is a speculative

script that could be for a TV show.

So write an episode of "The Office" or "The Simpsons" or

whatever just to show that, if you were on that staff, you'd be able

to know the voices, you'd know how to format it, you'd know how

to craft a story, you can write hard jokes. So have a spec script and

it'll probably take you a few to make a good one but back it up and

get their attention. Now that's for anyone starting out. I don't know

if I'd advise a high school senior to go right into TV writing. So

this advice is probably more for someone who just graduated

college or whatever stage in life – they're just ready to start this. So

if you're really going to go to college, I'd say stay funny. Be around

funny people, come up with funny ideas, and make your friends

laugh.

Tim Ferriss: Be mischievous.

BJ Novak: Yeah. Be mischievous.

Tim Ferriss: Now, you are – am I making this up – 30… let me see –

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: 36.

Tim Ferriss: 36. What advice would you give your 30-year-old self and where

were you, what were you doing at 30?

BJ Novak: At 30, I was on "The Office."

I wish I had told myself on "The Office" – and this might be

specific to me – the whole time I was on "The Office," I thought,

"Well, this is my best shot at whatever I'd ever want to do so I'd

better not waste a second. I'd better write a screenplay. I'd better

make an avant-garde film. I'd better get cast in something. I'd

better do my big thing while I'm still on "The Office" because I

don't want to be that guy who used to be on "The Office." But I

didn't have time. I had two jobs on "The Office." Either one of

them should take up your focus.

Tim Ferriss: I was going to say that, at one point, you had three, right? You

were a writer/producer/actor?

BJ Novak: Well, producer tends to just be high level writer.

Tim Ferriss: So I'd just take that – that was the same job. But it's important. The

writing for the whole show is part of your responsibility. So I wish

I could tell… And now people ask me, "What was it like working

on "The Office? Was it so much fun? Were you laughing all the

time?"

Yeah, but I have to admit that's buried under I was so anxious and

always trying to write some extra thing on the side – that I never

finished and never had time for – and I really didn't just enjoy this

incredible, once-in-a-lifetime thing. And as soon as "The Office"

ended, I was talented enough to write a book and I'm proud of the

book. And I made the app and I worked really hard and I was able

to pull it off. If you can do it, you can do it. You're not really on

someone else's schedule, ever.

And you know what I also tell people all the time? If Will Smith

isn't in a movie for three years, you're not walking around saying,

"Where's Will Smith?" Nobody's paying attention to anyone else at

all. You think everyone is but they're not. So take as long as you

want if you're talented. You'll get their attention again if you have

reason to. And so I do wish I had told myself back then, "This is

very, very special – own it, be in it and enjoy it," instead of being

so nervous – and all for nothing.

None of the things I tried to do on the side of "The Office" ever got

anywhere because I just didn't have time.

Tim Ferriss: I think that's good advice for a lot of people in a lot of places. That

was the advice, also, that Stephen King gave to Neil Gaiman, one

of my favorite fiction writers.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Really? What was the advice?

Tim Ferriss: Well, he said enjoy it because Neil was sitting at, I think it was a

book signing for "Sandman" which was just this incredible canon

of work that redefined what was possible in the graphic novel

genre.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Yeah, I know of that book.

Tim Ferriss: Just incredible and he's used that, of course, as a stepping stone to

write novels that have been turned into movies and so on. But he

was sitting there with this huge line of people, as I remember it,

and he said, "Enjoy this." And that's my laptop sliding. And he

didn't – he had a lot of trouble enjoying it and I think that's a

constant battle.

Well, I don't want to take up anymore of your time. This has been

a blast.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Oh, it's been great.

Tim Ferriss: It's getting dark and probably time for some food. Where can

people find you and what you're up to online? Where are the best

places to go?

BJ Novak: I'd think the best place is The List App because that's where I am.

So I would say download The List App on the app store or it'll be

on android and web, soon. And that's just three words: The List

App at l.ist. And my profile there is on my favorites, and ideas, and

thoughts on this and that. I'm also on Twitter. Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: @BJNovak?

BJ Novak: @BJNovak. And then that's me on List App, too.

Tim Ferriss: Cool. Well, this has been great fun. Maybe we'll do Round 2

sometime and thanks so much, again. I really appreciate it.

[Crosstalk]

BJ Novak: Thanks, man. It's been so cool.

Tim Ferriss: And to everybody listening, you can find the show notes – links to

all the books, shows, apps, etc. that were mentioned at

fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. Or you can just go to

fourhourworkweek.com and click on podcast.

It has show notes for this episode and every other episode. And, as

always, until next time, thank you for listening.